Mike: Now that we have the idea of solidarity with those being oppressed established, I think we should turn to the how. We have talked about the right to vote as one area to subvert. In an election year as epic as the one getting ready to take place in the U.S., this is more important than ever. I have been commenting about this on Josh Brown’s blog as well. I argue that voting, even if for the best candidate that has ever run, is participation in the kingdom of man. And participation is merely an extension of condoning a system of power that has many oppressive elements. What are your thoughts?
Chris: Well, I think between us (and most people that read this blog) that would be apparent. I personally do not vote and will not vote in any election. There are a few different reasons for this. Voting is a right granted to U.S. citizens by our government, whether our current representative process works is irrelevant. By exercising this right, for one example, we order and out our government into place. Therefore, any actions the government takes are our direct responsibility. There may always be a few good actions for a lot of bad. I personally feel by participating in putting that authority into place and validating it’s position by my participation that blood and injustice is on my hands. In the last post I mentioned some of the people that our government’s actions directly affect that don’t have our right to a say in those actions. By not voting we can show solidarity and love for our neighbors who are feeling the adverse affects of our decisions without having a say in them. By taking this action and not voting, we are in a position to be a witness and talk to people about why we have decided this. The third reason is simply that I personally am an anarchist, I don’t believe in any sovereign authority but God. If I were to willingly participate in this government (which acts in direct opposition to what I believe is the nature of our loving God) I am legitimizing that authority in place of God’s rule over my life. I hope that doesn’t come off as self-righteous, these are just a few reasons for not voting that I have thought about quite a bit.
Mike: I would add that even if you voted for the other candidate, the government’s actions are still your direct responsibility. How? Because you conceded victory to the other candidate, you approve of the way the system works. Had your candidate won, you would have expected those in opposition to concede. Therefore, by conceding, you are saying the other candidate’s future rulings and decisions have authority and will stand…even if you don’t like them…even if you hate them.
So if you are a McCain/Palin supporter but the Obama/Biden ticket wins and they end up sending massive amounts of troops into the deadly quagmire that is Afghanistan, you are responsible because you conceded the power to them.
Likewise, if you are an Obama/Biden voter but the McCain/Palin ticket wins and they end up nuking Iran, or unleashing some sort of crazy christian holy war, by conceding power to them, you are responsible.
This is why the kingdom of God cannot mix with the kingdom of man. Like oil and water, you can shake it and it looks mixed, but eventually, they will separate because they are utterly opposed to one another.
Chris: Absolutely. I checked out that blog and one thing I found interesting is everyone still spouting off the old “If you don’t vote, you don’t have any reason to complain”… Which is absolute nonsense. I think, if you choose not to vote, that’s the only way you still have integrity to criticize. If you vote, like you said, you are giving your legitimacy, your stamp of approval, to the outcome. The fact is whatever the outcome, the real outcome is going to have some degree of violence. Can we support that? Every politician in this country will say that (at least part of) the violence is done to protect us (or our interests). By voting are we supporting this claim as well, that we condone violence and receive their protection? Does our protection not come from God not Caesar? Look what Caesar did to our savior, can we be any safer in the hands of authority? If we hire (vote) someone to do our killing for us, we are still guilty of the act are we not?
Mike: I think we are hiring out our safety. Of course this brings up the issue of just war and defensive actions, but that is outside the scope of this topic. When looking at our defense, we in America have a very skewed idea of safety due to our positioning physically. It allows for a safe existence. Events like those that took place on September 11th are not sustainable, even if our government tells us they are. Therefore what we are voting for when it comes to war is who we think is going to allow us to be prosperous. It is our bloated prosperity, our idea of a never-contracting economy, which oppresses others and causes us to go to war these days. I don’t think we will see a politician who has a chance of ever winning basing their policies on truth and living within our means a country. Ironic, since we live in a so-called christian country, with christian leaders and christian government.
Chris: Great point. I have tried to continually remind myself since I stopped voting that when I did vote, it always seemed to come down to the lesser of two evils. The lesser of two evils is still evil. Voting for the lesser of two evils is a major compromise of one’s integrity. So what about those who choose to not vote? Maybe we can brainstorm a few ways to be vocal about your reasons and shed some public light on the issues at hand. Got anything?
Mike: I say we open that question up to everyone.
October 14, 2008 at 10:39 am
I realize that you’re both very set in your own beliefs, and don’t wish to try and sway you in any direction, but I have a question if you don’t mind.
While I agree with you that this country is far from perfect – you cannot deny that it is the greatest country on earth, and I believe this is so because we have always been a nation “under God” which valued and protected life and freedom.
According to God’s Word (and I’ll spare you listing the bible verses), we as Christians are supposed to abide by the rules and laws of our land, and since our rules and laws are determined by elected officials – don’t you feel a sense of duty to help elect people who will uphold the sanctity of life. After all isn’t “life” the basis for everything we believe.
By “not voting” won’t you have “blood and injustice on your hands” from all the innocent lives that are aborted everyday in this country?
Forget about the war and all the other stuff that separates people now days – if for no other reason isn’t this one issue worth casting your vote?
We will never live in a perfect world in this life, so we have to pick and choose our battles, and the war against abortion is one I believe all Christians should choose.
To speak up for the most innocent of all – the unborn child – is a cause by itself worth setting aside all other disagreements with our government and casting a vote for those individuals in favor of life.
I consider it a privilege, and one that I will never take for granted, especially with so much at stake.
Peace to you both.
October 14, 2008 at 12:23 pm
The fact that this country is the greatest country on earth is not an irrefutable fact. It’s your opinion. I’m not contesting that opinion, but I’m sure there are many other countries and millions of people that would. I agree perfection is not something a human government can attain, but where do we draw the line? This isn’t a sitcom where we can say we’re not perfect, shrug our shoulders, and wait for the commercial break.
Furthermore, this is not now, nor has it ever been a “nation under God”. No references to God even appear in the constitution, nor were the majority of our founder even Christian. Most were Deists. If that is why we are the greatest country on earth, why isn’t Iran in the running? They claim to be “one nation under God” as well. George Washington himself once wrote “This nation was not founded on any religious principles, Christian or otherwise”.
Where are the scriptures about Christians having to abide by the law of the land? I believe you are referring to the writings of Paul. Which is fine, but that’s not our savior. Jesus violated on several occasions, the laws of his own people (by talking to the woman at the well, picking food on the sabbath, raiding the temple) and seems to show complete disregard the law of the Romans. Just because Paul said otherwise that shouldn’t negate our original example.
Yes abortion is a great point. I am not pro-choice or pro-life, but if you are that’s a matter of personal opinion that has nothing to do with religion. It should not be some new blanket commandment. If you read a literal interpretation of the bible God himself shows no pity about killing newborns and children
* Numbers 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones.
* Deuteronomy 2:34 utterly destroyed the men and the women and the little ones.
* Deuteronomy 28:53 And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters.
* I Samuel 15:3 slay both man and woman, infant and suckling.
* 2 Kings 8:12 dash their children, and rip up their women with child.
* 2 Kings 15:16 all the women therein that were with child he ripped up.
* Isaiah 13:16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled and their wives ravished.
* Isaiah 13:18 They shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children.
* Lamentations 2:20 Shall the women eat their fruit, and children.
* Ezekiel 9:6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids and little children.
* Hosea 9:14 give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.
* Hosea 13:16 their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.
Abortion is not a biblical issue. Using a bible as a basis for when life actually begins is trying to legislate faith (and the bible doesn’t have a great tack record when it comes to scientific fact). Don’t take offense to this, I’m sure many people will disagree.
If you want to vote that’s fine. It’s a personal choice. This blog is simply a reflection of our choice. Voting is a right we have in this country, we have a right to vote and voice our concerns. We here at subversive church have opted out of participation and have decided to go at it a different way.
October 14, 2008 at 2:00 pm
wow…I apologize to you then. I wasn’t implying that you should vote – you’re obviously free not to (emphasis on free)
I merely asked a question – not realizing it came across as trying to make abortion a biblical issue. I thought the only biblical point I was trying to make had to do with persons of authority in our government. Here are some of the scriptures(since you asked)
Romans 13:1-7
I Timothy 2:1
Hebrews 13:17
I Peter 2:13-17
I’m not very good at getting my point across sometimes, so I don’t take offense to the way you interpreted my comment – all you had to go on were my words, which apparently were sorely lacking.
Yes, everything I wrote was, as you say, my opinnion – I know that, which is why I stated at the beginning that I didn’t wish to try and sway anyone one way or the other. I just wanted to know what you thought about the issue since it wasn’t mentioned in your post. I’ve always had a hard time understanding how so many people are opposed to war, but don’t really think much about abortion, which to me have the same end result.
As for our country – I don’t think any reply I could come up with would be of any value here, so I’ll just leave it alone.
Also, I guess you were really asking to hear from people with reasons why they choose not to vote, and my comment was for just the opposite.
October 14, 2008 at 2:22 pm
Hidden,
Thanks for the input, you make some excellent points. We aren’t looking for brevity, so feel free to post scriptures anytime, this is an open comment forum and we welcome scripture reference to support arguments. Trust me, we don’t think we have it all figured out…far, far from it.
I struggle with the fact that so many of the freedoms we enjoy today came from this country and the many people who struggled to obtain such freedoms and the founding of this country. There were many before them struggling for freedom across this planet and the struggle for freedom is ongoing.
Funny we don’t like ‘insurgents’ and ‘terrorists’ killing our soldiers, but in order to procure our freedom from Britian, we fought against what we considered an occupying force as well.
I mean, if China decided to invade our country for oil, or other natural resources, or another reason, would we not also pick up arms and protect our homeland?
So this great country you talk about, is a double-edged sword when it comes to being a follower of Christ.
I brought up terrorism and defending our country to lead into your other topic. Pro-life.
Bush and Cheney, whether you love them or hate them, ran on a pro-life platform. Now there are almost 100,000 Iraqi citizens dead as a direct result of our military action.
Iraq Body Count.
How exactly is that pro-life, especially when we see the invasion is about oil? So is pro-life really about being pro-American way of life?
Can we please stop using the term pro-life, since it is obvious that we aren’t? Can we be more specific and say we are pro-baby?
Don’t get me wrong, pro-baby is not a bad thing, far from it. I am totally pro-baby, what with 4 kids, one born on the 3rd of this month.
The kingdoms of man can never be pro-life because it must secure for its population resources and defend itself against threats. Even if you outlaw abortion, it will still take place because the people will want it.
Here is a question: How many pro-baby people are going to ante up once abortion is outlawed and the number of children up for adoption spikes through the roof?
There are ramifications for every vote that many, many people don’t think about when stepping into that voting booth. Yes voting is a right, but so isn’t taking responsibility for the outcomes.
Are you willing to take responsibility for who you vote into office? Are you willing to take responsibility for continuing this particular form of the kingdom of man, no matter what direction it takes?
-mike
October 15, 2008 at 7:40 am
Mike,
Thanks for the reply. To answer your last question – I can only take responsibility for the fact that I vote.
I can’t be responsible for the decisions people make once they are elected – I’m only responsible for doing what I believe is the right thing to do. I’ll try to explain what I mean.
I once gave a homeless man some money, who was sitting on a sidewalk in Philadelphia. The people that were with me gave me a hard time – telling me that “he’s just a drunk and he’s just gonna buy more to drink”, or “he probably has a nice home and makes more money than I do” First of all, they didn’t know that to be true, and second, if I felt led to give that man some money and I didn’t do it – then I would be at fault. What he did with the money I gave him was his responsibility.
That’s just an example that can be argued in many different directions I know – but it’s how I justify making the decisions I choose to make.
I take people at their word and make my desisions from there. I’ve been called gullible, naive, and sometimes stupid, but that’s ok. I don’t want to go through life second guessing everyone or being skeptical of everything someone tells me.
If I think that if I have the chance to make a positive difference in some way in a person’s life (or in our government) and I don’t do it – then I’m going against what I believe in my heart. If it turns out that I’m wrong – I know in my heart that I did what I thought to be the right thing.
My question to the two of you yesterday wasn’t intended to condem you for not voting – that is totally your call, and I believe you’re doing what you think is the right thing to do.
Isn’t that really all we can do – isn’t that the only way we can be at peace with God (as Christians) To do what we believe to be right and put our trust in Him. God knows the intents of our hearts and in the end that’s how we will all be judged.
Oh, and by the way, congratulations on the new addition to your family – May God bless you and keep you.
October 16, 2008 at 2:56 am
Hidden,
I enjoy our dialogues. I love what you said about doing what we believe to be right. I think that is a very freeing view of following God.
I didn’t find your question condemning, it is quite valid.
I’m curious what your thoughts are on one of my questions about abortion. I worded it yesterday as though it was leveled at you personally. Sorry about that.
I would like to continue the idea of responsibility as I think it is important and probably the one I struggled with the most when deciding to not vote.
Using abortion as the subject of responsibility you asked in your first comment, “By “not voting” won’t you have “blood and injustice on your hands” from all the innocent lives that are aborted everyday in this country?”
If I voted and continued to vote for those candidates who are anti-abortion, yet abortion still remained legal, am I washed of the blood and injustice? Is that all I need to do, or do I need to ratchet up my efforts to stop abortion?
What is the next level? Protesting in front of a clinic? And if that doesn’t work and people are still streaming into abortion clinics? What do I do next?
Do I blow up the clinics, kill the doctors? Or do I beg one of the patients coming in to let me adopt the baby?
We have seen many elections come and go, but abortion still remains. As abortion continues in our nation, what do you consider to be the next step in stopping abortion?
-mike
October 16, 2008 at 4:02 pm
Just wanted to say that I like the new format of switching back and forth between Mike and Chris- it makes it a little easier to understand who is saying what.
Although I don’t post comments on here much, I just wanted to say that I do read and appreciate (though not always agreeing) your thoughts. It always leaves me with a lot to consider, pray over, and research.
October 17, 2008 at 11:51 am
Mike,
Thanks again for your replies and clarifications.
With respect to the next step in stopping abortion – that’s a personal one. It’s a fight that unfortunately I don’t see an end to anytime soon, but there are things we can do to help.
Voting for those who oppose abortion I think is a more broad, first step approach to the problem because I realize I’m placing my trust in the system. However it is something that’s within my capability to do.
Other more hands-on approaches would be to offer to help with organizations like Planned Parenthood, local adoption agencies, etc. Adoption is something I’ve been contemplating a lot lately since my children are now on their own, and it’s an option that’s become more fisable for me.
Violence (in this instance) is not an option. A life for a life mentality would make us nothing more than hypocrites. Which is why I mentioned in a previous post that protesting a war, while ignoring the taking of inocent lives through abortion is very confusing to me.
You’re right, if abortion were outlawed there would still be those people who would seek it out, but again, that responsibility would be placed on those individuals.
As for being “washed of the blood and injustice” by voting pro-life – it goes back to my reasoning that we can only do what we believe is the right thing. If voting is all we can do for a particular issue, then God, who sees our hearts knows that we have done our best to help.
So yes, even if abortion remains, I believe those of us who do what we can (within our means) will not be condemed for something that we had no control over.
The question might come up that by voting anti-abortion, aren’t we also voting pro-war, given the platforms of the politicians?
My thought is that I choose to over look the one – in hopes of promoting the other. Physically, the two are not related, but spiritually, I believe the positive significance is far greater if we error on the side of the unborn child.
It’s a difficult position to be in, and I have long searched my heart and conclude that I can only do what I believe to be the right thing, in any given situation – and in that thought I find peace.
Hope this answers your questions.
October 17, 2008 at 3:12 pm
Hidden,
There is no doubt these are tough issues with no right answer.
As far as the platform issue, violence is always going to be a part maintaining kingdoms of man. Trust me I have no illusions that we can create some sort of utopia with no violence.
I just watched Charlie Wilson’s War last night. An interesting flick. But what stood out to me was the CIA agent telling a story about a zen master who kept saying “we’ll see” to various events as people around him said they were good or bad. The implication being that while we won the covert war in Afghanistan and drove the Russians out causing celebration. The CIA agent pointed out we left a power vacuum and if we didn’t step in and rebuild the country, then the country would descend into chaos.
Fast forward to now and look who we are fighting, those who we helped. Could the current situation have been avoided if we had provided a means to beat their swords into plowshares?
I wonder if the number of uwanted children ending up as wards of the state would go up as a result of outlawing abortion? Thoughts on this scenerio?
-mike
October 17, 2008 at 4:53 pm
May I also add (to Mike’s question) is it better to vote for a candidate who claims to want to outlaw abortion or a candidate who is pro-choice but may have a better plan for healthcare, childcare, education, etc. in order to make a better environment for having unexpected children- wouldn’t that result in less abortions? Please do not take this as me endorsing any candidate. Just posing a question.
October 17, 2008 at 5:06 pm
Also, just a side note, if abortion is illegal hidden said the responsibility of abortion falls on the women who choose to disobey the law. This is true, however, what about the lives of the tens of thousands of women who died from botched abortions in this country alone prior to Roe v. Wade. I think outlawing abortion is not a great first step. I think the first step to saving the lives of unborn children is improving the conditions of the mothers and making a society that is more welcoming and secure for unplanned pregnancies. Generally, again I am not endorsing a party or candidate, the party that is pro-choice is also the party that places (at least some) emphasis on social welfare and well-being programs… which seems to have the effect of dramatically decreasing abortion rates. Isn’t that being an effective deterrent to abortion?
October 20, 2008 at 7:47 am
It’s really a complicated issue and obviously there’s not any clear cut answer to the negative out comes of one plan or the other.
Again I can only speak for myself and what I believe to be the right thing, and for me everything always comes back to my trust in God.
I live my life acting and reacting to the world around me with the ever-present knowledge that God is with me, helping me, and guiding me to do what’s right, and after doing so – trusting that He will make all things turn out for good.
I realize that this sounds like a very simplistic approach, and I don’t mean to imply that I don’t care about what happens to anyone else as long as I do what I think is right. It’s just the way I’ve always looked at life.
I see all the problems in the world as coming from the lack of a belief and trust in God. If we would all wake up everyday and really know and understand that Almighty God is watching and that our every action has a consequence, both physically and spiritually, we wouldn’t have to worry about things like abortion.
A candidate who offers a better health care plan, but ignores the right to life helps to undermine the very core of what God is about, which is life. By going against the nature of God’s plan we put ourselves in these situations, and consequently spend our lives trying to rectify problems that could have been avoided.
Ultimately, a life lived for God through Christ is the answer to the world’s problems – that is my belief, and my prayer.
Thanks again guys for the feedback, and I hope I’ve answered your questions.
Peace to you both.
October 20, 2008 at 3:48 pm
Hidden,
I think you are right with the lack of trust in God, but isn’t that the human condition throughout time? I’m sure it isn’t going to change anytime soon.
You could say we consider a lack of trust and faith (not belief as you say, because a lot of people believe, but don’t have faith) in God stems from putting faith in the empires and governments of man.
Thanks for keeping up the dialogue.
-mike