i totally agree with that. i think that comes alot in just that mentality of people in general…no one wants to take responsibility themselves cause it’s work and if you fail…you have only yourself to blame. i think the role of pastor, while it’s a leadership role…it should be more an “usher” role. someone to “lead you to your seat”, but everything after that is up to you. if you have a bad experience beyond that it’s up to you. a pastor and guide and offer wisdoms, but it’s up to YOU if you’ll accept it. i know you what i mean. that irritates me with people. i’m sure that must be frustrating for a pastor…to have that much…responsibility. although i will admit…many of them let it go to their heads and abuse it. then there are those who don’t. i just go to church and listen for God’s promting. like…it finally hit me…don’t listen to the man talking…listen for ME, when you just know that I am speaking directly to you, through this man. that’s just i’ve learned to do.

so now that we are all in agreement with our annoyances of the church as it is right now…what do we do, to change it?

The story of the children of Israel in Judges comes to mind. After years in the Promised Land of a cycle of salvation, then silence before God, leading to sin, submission to foreign powers, surrender to God again then salvation…again, the Hebrew nation cries out in 1 Samuel for a king. God has intended He be their King, but the Hebrews reject that spiritual economy.

We in this day and time likewise shrink back from a spiritual reality God leadership over our lives which He intends in favor for a material system of leadership that we can see. He has granted by grace that we know a freedom from the natural man. We do not accept that in faith we can walk there without an earthly king, the head pastor. It is an adulteration of God’s plan that reeks havoc in the lives of the ones who take on the mantle of this role people expect from the title “pastor” and denies those following of the true maturity that comes from taking personal responsibility for spiritual growth.

Feeding and tending to a flock is a supportive role not an executive role. Some pastors manage this within the system. Most, however, eat the Turkish Delight of power to some degree and weaken everyone in the process.

God is faithful nonetheless and meets the humble heart no matter the earthly circumstances. Hallelujah!

ded…i think the point i was getting at with lost and lord of the flies…yes it’s about fallen men. but fallen men is what we are. notice at the beginning of both stories. (there just happens to be a plane crash) and immediately people start looking to someone for direction. i think it is the nature of people to follow a leader. in the case of Christian…a mentor, a pastor. do i think the leader is above them or can lord over them? no way, jose! we are brothers and sisters…we are all “fallen”, but we aren’t all called to stand in front of a group of people and teach (i am stagefright) and we aren’t all called to lead loudly. we can each be leaders in our own God given way…and we can each be followers…in our God given way. and there’s safety in that structure. look to Christ for guidance, yes…but sometimes he just answers that question in another person…a “leader”. i have a GREAT mentor. an older woman from my old church. is she “over” me? no way…but she is wise…and i value her counsel…and in that way…she is a leader to me. my fiance is a leader to me by covering me and giving me Godly counsel…and setting Godly boundaries for me and our home. i think that’s kinda the point i was getting at with the leadership thing. you have to be willing to lead…as well as follow. anyhoo….

mike…i like what chris’s new post said. he had a much better way of putting my heart for the church. not the building…but the people who are in my life who have shown me through their own lives what it is to really serve the Lord. it’s a really cool thing to see…i value it so much.

ps. i broke my toe. first broken bone EVER!

“Lessons from Geese” was transcribed from a speech given by Angeles Arrien at the 1991 Organizational Development Network and was based on the work of Milton Olson. It circulated to Outward Bound staff throughout the United States.

FACT 1:

As each goose flaps its wings it creates an “uplift” for the birds that follow. By flying in a “V” formation, the whole flock adds 71% greater flying range than if each bird flew alone.

LESSON:

People who share a common direction and sense of community can get where they are going quicker and easier because they are traveling on the thrust of one another.

FACT 2:

When a goose falls out of formation, it suddenly feels the drag and resistance of flying alone. It quickly moves back into formation to take advantage of the lifting power of the bird immediately in front of it.

LESSON:

If we have as much sense as a goose we stay in formation with those headed where we want to go. We are willing to accept their help and give our help to others.

FACT 3:

When the lead goose tires, it rotates back into formation and another goose flies to the point position.

LESSON:

It pays to take turns doing the hard tasks and sharing leadership. As with geese, people are interdependent on each other’s skills, capabilities and unique arrangements of gifts, talents or resources.

FACT 4:

The geese flying in formation honk to encourage those up front to keep up their speed.

LESSON:

We need to make sure our honking is encouraging. In groups where there is encouragement, the production is much greater. The power of encouragement (to stand by one’s heart or core values and encourage the heart and core of others) is the quality of honking we seek.

FACT 5:

When a goose gets sick, wounded or shot down, two geese drop out of formation and follow it to help and protect it. They stay with it until it dies or is able to fly again. Then, they launch out with another formation or catch up with the flock.

LESSON:

If we have as much sense as geese, we will stand by each other in difficult times as well as when we are strong.

As for Mike’s question regarding how long one should remain a fledgling, I don’t know. I agree with your point, the church is not rearing them as they should. Many likely assume that they are doing everything that is the church needs to do.

“We allow, though it is a melancholy truth, that a large proportion of those who are called Christians, do to this day abuse the means of grace to the destruction of their souls. This is doubtless the case with all those who rest content in the form of godliness, without the power. Either they fondly presume they are Christians already, because they do thus and thus,–although Christ was never yet revealed in their hearts, nor the love of God shed abroad therein: — Or else they suppose they shall infallibly be so barely because they use these means; idly dreaming, (though perhaps hardly conscious thereof,) either that there is some kind of power therein, whereby, sooner or later (they know not when), they shall certainly be made holy; or that there is a sort of merit in using them, which will surely move God to give them holiness, or accept them without it.” – J. Wesley

Why try to fix what is inherently broken? I don’t need a leader, I have one. God. The same is true for all others trying to follow Christ, they just haven’t been taught how.

-mike

-mike

“…an automatic check and balance keeping one fromusurping over others. It is called face to face relationship.

I’d rather consider the words of Jesus: Matthew 23:8 “But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 “Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 “Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ. 11 “But the greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 “Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.

Notice He did not say, “No one shall lead.”

You are correct Jen that there will be ones who step out first, or who are older and by their experience will have more insight. We, however, do not need a “parent” as you suggest. God the Father is the Parent, and He is sufficient. If an organized church has a membership role as there are too many names to remember, then by its size it requires administration. I accept that. But to violate what Jesus is describing in Matthew 23 and call these administrators father, leader, teacher, or rabbi and ascribe to them a hierarchical authority over others is as the gentiles do it; and this to the loss of maturity of the average believer. People lacking confidence will unwittingly shift personal responsibility of walking with God to expecting the “leader” to know how to do that. There will that believer remain, dependent on man and not God.

You mention your concern that there will be one who rises and takes authority if there is not ordained or pre-selected leadership. Experience bears out your concern, no doubt. I have seen exactly what you fear. Have you ever experienced a different level of authority than the hierarchy model? In large groups, again, yes, there must be a designated one; but in small groups there is an automatic check and balance keeping one usurping over others. It is called face to face relationship. If we would act in faith that people are new creatures in Christ, expect such from one another, support one another in the reality of God’s love and trust the Father to by the Holy spirit be the Teacher He says He will be, instead of assuming every possible sin will overtake us…organic Christian life and community will root and flourish.

just for fun…i was wondering what you thought about the rev jesse jackson comments recently about obama. i don’t know if you like discussing politics or just the church…i just kinda thought it was funny.

i like what joe said. he made the point i had been trying to make…much shorter..and much more efficiently my heart doesn’t settle with the idea of “undoing” the church, as much as getting in the church and reshaping it. but i also agree that mega churches are “holding tanks”. like a big aquarium of christians. like i said before. i think the vision of the mega church was just to get the basic name of Christ out there and save souls. mass evangelism, if you will. i guess the next phase needs to kick in here pretty quick, to say the least. in my mind, i kinda see alot of these mega-church leaders with this vision God gives them…kinda like field of dreams “if you build it, they will come”. but now that they are all there and listening…………………….and the dots don’t stop. maybe they are kinda at a loss…like…ok i am not seeing where this is going now…we need the leaders of the next phase to kick in. yah.

ded…i agree kinda with what you are saying. but the idea of not having a leader is kinda…scary. there always has to be a leader…if one has not been appointed…one or more will try and rise or will be “unofficially” appointed. when there are more than one trying to rise or nominated “unofficially”…you get rivalry and competition, and people voting, and taking sides. you need a “parent”. just watch lost. or read lord of the flies. even when YOU don’t want a leader…there will be one. there will always be ONE. if there are more they will split into groups…and there will be ONE leader per group. i understand what you are saying about authority too.but i do think there has to be some level of authority and respect…just as a shepherd has some authority over his flock…he also has responsibility over his flock. which is a heavy burden to bear. a good leader will not “lord” his authority over you. that’s just an issue with that particular person. i think one of the main reasons God appoints leaders and then people who will follow is to avoid chaos and to keep some structure. leaders are good.

ugh…i got all long-winded and wordy again. sorry. good to “see” you again, mike.

@ Joe
I don’t want to pull the mat out from underneath them. I do at least want them to see what is outside the walls. My question to you then becomes how long are they to stay fledglings?

If the mainstream church was a training ground that was like a school, in at one level and out another, I might be ok with it. But it is more like a holding tank… which is why we need megachurches. I think that analogy came from Neil Cole’s Organic Church.

-mike