Essentially, Wesley thought they (the Moravians) had the ordo salutis out of order.

An excellent reference for Wesley is Kenneth Collins’ book, the theology of John Wesley: Holy Love and the Shape of Grace. Or The Scripture Way of Salvation: the Heart of John Wesley’s Theology, also by Collins.

By the way, I’m now reading and enjoying Jesus for President.

Outside of the hothouse life seems more real and meaningful, and I will always help anyone questioning the system to sort out their thoughts. If anyone hears God calling him or her out, they will have to decide to respond or not. I can encourage that.

But all of this is just me. I am not suggesting this is The Way to deal with the institution.

For the record, I agree with you about the church and living past the institution. But for sake of the discussion…

Does this mean the mainstream church isn’t the real church?

It may seem like I’m always looking for a way to stick it to ‘the church’, and I will admit, I do struggle with those thoughts. However, I see what I came out out, I know its destructive power and I want as many as possible to start to open their eyes as well.

uhh…not to be contentious, but what if the revolution has already occurred?

God has already provided the revolution: the keys of hell and death have been taken from Satan. Those who live accordingly are way past the nonsense of the institution.

I don’t think the mainstream church will respond to revolution anyway. It has for centuries learned how to avoid dealing with the revolution.

First, what goes mainstream probably isn’t what started out as the revolution in the first place. Generally the masses didn’t go for it at first and it is then forced on them. Or it is made more palatable by losing some of the aspects that that put it too far out on the fringe to begin with. And in the case of Jesus and christianity, I think we can see that happening within a hundred year span.

Second, anything that starts out as a revolution or on the fringe is making a statement about the current mainstream. Generally, that statement is saying the mainstream is wrong. It is trying to replace or fix the mainstream. That is what I was getting at in my post about reformist or revolutionary. Is the fringe trying to fix or replace the current model? If that is the case, then it will, by default become the mainstream.

Finally, you have a culture that is so whipped up into being ‘extreme’ or ‘cutting edge’ that anything fringe or revolutionary is gobbled up by the marketing monster ready to make a buck on the next ‘big thing’. It is this option that so concerns me with the church today. Just as you saw alternative worship services become part of the marketing plan of churches, so you see home groups, slick tech-savvy presentations, and now a tinge of the Emergent. I’m sure intentional community will make its way in there as well.

Maybe to some extent it is authentic, and maybe to some extent it is good. But mostly it is the church trying to hold on to its market share. The church in years past would banish people with thoughts like those of Shane or the Emergent crowd. Or throw them on the rack, or toast them over an open fire.

Now they use marketing, no reason killing off your tithe base, you know?

So, there has to be another way. And there is. The way of Jesus. He didn’t come in with reforms to fix a broken temple system. Just as we shouldn’t be trying to fix or replace the mainstream. We should be taking a whole other path. One that is narrow. Some will follow and we should be a voice in the wilderness, but not at the expense of leaving the path. That is revolution that will never go mainstream.

-Mike