Does this mean I can’t stand in front of the church with a picket sign?
From Bible Gateway:
Matthew 7
Judging Others
(Luke 6.37,38,41,42)
1Don’t condemn others, and God won’t condemn you. 2God will be as hard on you as you are on others! He will treat you exactly as you treat them.
3You can see the speck in your friend’s eye, but you don’t notice the log in your own eye. 4How can you say, “My friend, let me take the speck out of your eye,” when you don’t see the log in your own eye? 5You’re nothing but show-offs! First, take the log out of your own eye. Then you can see how to take the speck out of your friend’s eye.
Seriously, scriptures like these are going to be used against us when we do speak out against the church. In fact, they already have been. Whenever I have questioned my friend about certain practices in the church, inevitably something like this will arise. For the sake of our friendship I will back down to avoid an deeper fundamental argument. However, the rift is there, though unspoken.
The argument of the church is simply, “The impetus is on you. Prove us wrong.” The mainstream church will rarely put its neck out there over any issue. Sure, ‘the church’ as some sort of mythical whole may have a few spokespersons out there to speak out against the Big 2, homosexuality & abortion, but when do you ever see a local church body at the front of that charge?
What about the modern slave trade? What about corporate greed? What about misuse of our planet? Where are the church spokespeople on those issues? Or more importantly, where are any so-called christian individuals? Even if the church isn’t in the world speaking out against travesties, shouldn’t it at least be mentioned on Sundays?
So, am I judging if I stand in front of the mega church in Morgantown with a sign that reads, “Was this building worth $12 million? Would the same amount be raised to help the 2 million kids in the international sex slave market?” Amos Lanka has a good post and link about the human trafficking market and I have to give him credit for what my sign would say.
If Jesus called the religious leaders unmarked graves, then I think we can say the same of today’s leaders. They preach one thing, but never hold the listeners who call themselves christians responsible. The relationship between the two is one of mutual destruction. They feed off the apathy of one another. They play both host and virus to one another. And in the end take themselves out of the equation that is the world. Maybe then, we should just let sleeping dogs lie.
But I can’t. Not because of the actions of the leaders. They have made their own bed, let them lie in it. But I can’t let it go because I know there are more out there like us, those who know there is something more than pew-warming. But, the success of these mega churches, the easiness of these overly simplistic worship songs, the feel-good message with graphics, it is all too alluring to the unsuspecting. And the idea of going it alone is pretty daunting. Imagine knowing then what you know now.
So any takers for a day of protesting in front of a church?
June 13, 2008 at 4:15 pm
wow, talk about plucking a heart string. i recently left the staff of an up and rising mega church in albuquerque…a lot of people ask why. i could have been set there! their right, but there has to be something so much more to the “church” then what we’re getting and reading Amos’ blog shows what that more should be.
if the church wants to be the church then it has to stop (completely) looking inward at itself and start looking beyond their four walls…beyond an annual mission trip… they have to start looking at the helpless and reaching a helping hand as a lifestyle!
i’ll hold a picket sign.
thanks for making me think through what the church really should be…push on, your doing good work!
June 16, 2008 at 12:38 am
(this is mike)
Thanks. I really mean it. This is lonely work out here, especially in WV where we are definitely in the minority.
June 16, 2008 at 2:58 am
your idea for your sign particularly reminds me of rob bell’s new book (coming out in october)
http://blog.amoslanka.com/2008/06/07/speaking-of-rob-bell/
Bell tends to be more on the emergent side of Christian ideas but I’m excited with the directions he’s taking with the new book.
June 16, 2008 at 8:36 am
(this is mike)
I’ve really enjoyed Rob Bell and think he has a lot of insightful things to say. I found his latest talk ‘the gods aren’t angry’ to be very moving and a lot of ‘extra pieces’ found their home as I pondered what he had to say.
I knew he had a new book coming out, but haven’t looked into it…reading your post now.
June 16, 2008 at 1:41 pm
So I go to the Mars Hill site to download the talks you mentioned.. It was a bit of a letdown that you actually have to pay for it. I won’t get started on all that..
July 2, 2008 at 7:17 pm
ok…i’m here…
honestly…i really do agree with this post. like i said in the other post on amos’ blog…i am tooootally with you on the “megachurch syndrome”, i like to call it. i live in dallas…we are in the south…so we have a small steepled baptist church on every corner, right? WRONG! we actually have a multiple acre-d facility called the “megachurch” on every corner. the kind of church you get lost in…the kind of church where you never see the same face twice…the kind of church where you aren’t 100% sure who to call “pastor” because you haven’t seen the titled “pastor” since your first visit over 2 months ago. the kind of church where you HAVE TO go to a home group…the kind of church where after 2 years of attendance, 2 years in a home group, you walk in one morning after missing a few weeks or a month, and a familiar face (probably someone from your home group) greets you at the door with a smile as if they had never seen your face before….the kind of church where the pastor is escorted out by 2 elders (aka secret service) and greeting church goers is just out of the question…yes i know. not only did i “grow up” in one those…where you had to “know” someone to serve there…i also attended one after college. the non (now inter) denominational megachurch. music…great. teaching…great. friends…yeah right. fellowship…sure…but don’t expect to be remembered next week. during college…i attended a baptist church ( also was at a baptist college). you know…the kind of place where actions speak louder than heart. the kinda of place where…if you werent involved and leading 6 bible studies…oh dear…you must have some kind of hinderance in your relationship with God..or oh God forbid you were in the presence of someone who drank a beer or even worse…YOU DRANK ONE (gasp). all this…(yes this will be long)…to say…i totaaaallllly know where you are coming from. here’s my transition…
after being snubbed in high school by the youth worship team (apparently i didn’t “know” the right people). i became very bitter at the “church” as a whole. “politics do not belong in the church! i want to serve, gosh darnit…i’m gonna serve no matter what…jerks!!”. so angry…so hurt…my little 15 year old spirit was broken. and i carried for a really long time. finallllly…i came to a place of clarity. i went through alot of really hard times, and a divorce… (too long of a story and irrelevant), but i spent almost 2 years after that searching for what was truth in my life. i went through this hardcore time of allowing God to purge my heart, mind, and spirit. at the end of this (took 2 years) the last thing God revealed to me was my hurt and brokeness toward the church i attended in high school. and how i had been treated by the church my whole life. an outcast…never “good enough” to serve…not only what i had felt…but what i had been told. i don’t want to talk badly of the church…because i still feel like the church is God’s people and so many people in the church are genuinely good hearted people that truly love Jesus…and i dont want non-believers to be afraid..or turned off to going to church. there are plenty of faults in the church. PLENTY. and i don’t know what the point of 400,000 attendance every sunday is. besides toooo many people to fellowship with. something God really opened my eyes to…and kinda what i was trying to say about the billboard thing…God examines your heart…and he’s the only one who can. God may call one person to build this amazing building for whatever reason (i don’t see it either, believe me…too many people don’t have house…we don’t need plasma screens in church) but i just had to come to a place where i accepted the fact that God IS GOING to use it for His glory and will correct and discipline like he has always done. and it is my personal responsibility to remain faithful to God and His word, and his people…and his work. part of that i believe is attending church regularly and being in fellowship with other believers. side note: we tried a new church on sunday…300 people (tiiiiny for here) and no joke…last night…the pastor called me….CALLED ME!!! i was amazed. i mean you expect…a secretary…a home group leader…NO…the actual pastor…blew me away! i thought it was awesome.
(i told you this would be long
)
on the “judgement thing”…i think there is a fine line between judgement and accountability…between advise and condemnation. so…the most vague and annoying answer possible…it depends on your heart. are you going at these leaders with strife or bitterness in your heart toward them?? or are you correcting and challenging with love and encouragement…it’s a fine line. NO ONE responds well to anger or pride. “a gentle answer turns away wrath”. so…does standing out in front of the church with sarcastic protest signs against the church seem like the right thing to do? no. honestly…it just seems foolish. why would you stir up dissension…and make a scene for believers and non-believers (that’s a biggie) to see other Christians acting like that toward each other. that doesn’t at all make a statement of love or accountability. it makes a statement of separation and ugliness between ourselves. no bueno. yeah…great witness of love to the non-believers. just because the church may not be doing a great job of it…doesn’t mean we all have the right to respond in the same way. while i agree with you on your points…i feel strongly about speaking out against the church as a whole. does it need improvement…ABSOLUTELY!!! is it faulted…OF COURSE. there is so much needed in the church. i would LOVE LOVE LOVE to see a church raise $12 million dollars and spend it building houses for people…instead of building with plasma screens. there is an answer….i don’t know it…and it will take an army to fulfill it. but i know the change will be made with love. call me naive if you must…but…if God will come at me with nothing but a loving heart with the attitude and bitterness i had…then i will do the same to others. no matter what.
LAST THING!!! (promise): malachi 3:8 and pretty much the whole book of leviticus can help with the tithing subject. and honestly…i have already heard the “that’s out of context” debates…and you know…honestly…tithing has never steered me the wrong way…i have never suffered, but actually usually tend to see more success in my life when i am faithful to tithe. and that’s pretty much that.
July 2, 2008 at 7:23 pm
also…there is a difference in Jesus (perfect, never sinned) calling out the church leaders…and you or myself (sinners) doing that…there is a tactful and respectful way to approach a church leader that has been “God-placed”. God placed leaders in your life…who are also sinners…growing up…did you call your parents out on mistakes or “a wrong heart motivation”? it’s disrespectful and i think wrong if done the incorrect way.
July 2, 2008 at 11:10 pm
Jen,
I’ll let my posts speak for me on the issue of church. My posts are going to be dismissed by those firmly planted in the mainstream church. Big deal. Jesus said he came to give life to the sick and dying. I am following in those footsteps. There are people who have heard what I and others are saying and it has been a lifeline to them. I consider myself a follower of Jesus and firmly believe that we are called to pick up our cross. Jesus picked up his cross for speaking out, so will I when the time comes.
Jesus also said this in John 14:12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
You have derided the mega church, but in the end still side with their practices by saying they are above correction. If they are so impersonal, and guarded by elders, how can they be corrected?
Jen, do not sell yourself short! You are called to much greater things than sitting in a pew!
On the issue of tithing, I’d like your opinion on this passage:
Deuteronomy 14:22-29
In any case, this is the old law. Do you consider yourself still under the old law? Do we get to pick and choose and warp the old law to fit what makes us feel better about sitting in a pew instead of actually doing something to bring the kingdom of God to earth?
But if you want to figure out exactly what you need to give, then here is a Jewish masser calculator:
http://rabbi.bendory.com/docs/maasercalc.php
Masser is ‘tithe’ in Hebrew.
July 3, 2008 at 2:43 am
[...] know such lively debate was taking place. I think Jen and Mike continued some of the discussion here [...]
July 3, 2008 at 9:52 am
i’m interested to know exactly what God, Himself has told about the direction of the church? because it seems that you have some insight that none of the other “American Church” leaders have. i am a bit offended that you would basically consider me a “lemming” because i come to the defense of the church. as if i’m blinded or brainwashed…or just “feel good sitting in my pew”. i never said i sided with their practices, or even like the church’s practices at this time. what i did say…and my whoooole point the entire time…you come with sarcasm and strife against the church…against the leaders that God has placed in the church…as if YOU personally know God’s agenda. i’m not saying…put your trust in the church…i’m not coming to the defense of the practices of the church. i don’t understand it…i don’t see where they could be possibly be going besides nationwide complacency…BUT!!!! i do come to the defense of God here. as if we have any room to say…God isn’t doing anything here and this isn’t going anywhere and we need to change it because WE DON’T LIKE IT. i understand that there are many people who are not helped by the church…but there have been many who are. i trust that God is doing something…there is a purpose…there is a direction…whether we see…whether we agree with it…or not…it’s still there. and we HAVE TO trust that God will follow through…even when it takes some time. does that mean you don’t question the leaders?? of course not…you can question the leaders…you can even question what God is doing…but to me…speaking out against the church because you don’t like it…for the whole world to see…you might as well be speaking out against God. are they doing something so wrong??? besides…in YOUR eyes spending money wrong? and who are you to say they spent the money wrong. if God called them to raise 12 million dollars (understand…i don’t get it either) for a building…and THAT’S what they did…and THAT’S what they spent it on…what’s wrong with that?? they did exactly what God told them to do. whether YOU like or not. i don’t at all think you can’t show concern, and be active to DO something…to do something different than what the church is doing. but now you suggest going to question the leaders of the church…with sarcasm, and arrogance. as if you know the plan better than them. if its not right for you or you feel that God is calling you to do something different…then do it! what’s stopping you? why do you create Christian division in the midst of it?? just do what it is you think you are called to doing. and if you feel you need to question the church and it’s direction…then do that. i just don’t understand why you do it with sarcasm and strife…? i mean…when you and your wife disagree about something…do you go stand in your yard with a sarcastic sign visible for everyone in your neighborhood? so everyone can be included in whatever strife you have in your home?? isn’t the church meant to be somewhat of a family? your fellow Christians? your brothers and sisters in Christ?? so you point out their faults and laugh at them in front of the whole neighborhood. i can’t see how THAT is at all effective for non-Christians. more like…feeding whatever fire is keeping them from church in the first place..and creating confusion…where the same church you are speaking against could be the church God was directing them to. all i’m saying…just cause it’s not for you (or me)…doesn’t mean it’s not for someone or that its not “God-ordained” or “God-directed”. again…my defense is not for the church. but for God. there is an appropriate way…and an appropriate order. that’s my point.
tithing…
Jesus didn’t come and die to do away with the law…but to fulfill the law. and then i must ask you…so…because we are not “bound” to the “old law” we no longer need the ten commandments?? we no longer need to honor our parents…? and…i guess now it’s cool to bear false witness?? or covet our neighbors?? talk about picking and choosing…and like i said before…it has never ever steered me wrong. maybe it’s a personal preference…a personal belief…something i feel God has impressed on my heart…when i was reading through leviticus questioning the purpose of tithe…i’m fine with settling on that.
(ps. i really want you to know that i do agree with your view on the American Church. i don’t agree with the idea of “tearing down” the church…if that makes sense)
July 3, 2008 at 1:25 pm
Jen,
I’m just going to go through your comment and pull out what I’m commenting to, there might not be much order to it, so bear with me.
“…you come with sarcasm and strife against the church…”
LOL! Yeah, that’s kinda the point…subversive church and all…
“i am a bit offended that you would basically consider me a “lemming” ”
Sorry about that. Did you read Amos’ new post about our discussion? It’s here: http://blog.amoslanka.com/2008/07/02/church-is-not-god/
“it seems that you have some insight that none of the other “American Church” leaders have”
Nah. Nothing that isn’t shown to us in the scriptures. Being set apart as a model completely different than the rest of the Kindgom of man, grace, and subverting the empires of our time.
“…against the leaders that God has placed in the church…”
Seriously, God didn’t place them in their hierarcical roles, we did. The Hebrews wanted a king like everyone else, and God even warned them what would happen. Well, we do the same thing with pastors. You may disagree, but that is my stand.
“i trust that God is doing something…”
I do to, but he is waiting on us to do it.
“if God called them to raise 12 million dollars”
So is that the argument they used to support the Inquisition? Because they killed people in the name of God then. And by spending that money now on a posh building for themselves they are essentially saying that people can starve to death or stay in the sex slave industry.
“they did exactly what God told them to do.”
So now who knows God’s plan? Are you saying that God wants us to have really nice buildings in lieu of others having food or freedom?
“then do it! what’s stopping you?”
Nothing. Beyond what I write here, I keep things pretty low key. Matthew 6:1-4 and all.
“and if you feel you need to question the church and it’s direction…then do that.”
I am.
“so everyone can be included in whatever strife you have in your home??”
The difference between my marriage and the church is my marriage is not out trying to increase its membership. At least it better not be! LOL! The church is trying to actively recruit in a way I see as wrong. Therefore, I am also going to be public with my disagreement.
“..and creating confusion…”
Seriously? The confusion comes from reading the bible and seeing how the modern church reacts to the world around it, not from me point out the contidictions. Most people outside the church I talk to find it a breath of fresh air that I speak as I do and still hold on to my faith. It gives them hope.
I want to set this one apart.
“feeding whatever fire is keeping them from church in the first place..”
Is the goal for people to go to ‘church’ or is it for them to know God and follow the teachings of Christ?
“my defense is not for the church.”
But it is Jen, you are defending people going to church. God is everywhere, not just in some building. The true church is people, not a building to go to. You can be part of the church and not ever step foot in a building.
On the issue of tithing:
“maybe it’s a personal preference…a personal belief…”
Is it law or a personal belief/conviction?
“so…because we are not “bound” to the “old law” we no longer need the ten commandments??”
Again that is picking and choosing which law you feel we need to keep. What about Leviticus 15:19-33 or any of the other laws that we would consider discrimination toward women in today’s society? Galatians 3:10. If you keep one part, you must keep it all.
That is not to say we get to disregard it, it simply means our salvation isn’t dependant on it. To say that we must keep this particular law or that means we had better be keeping all of it.
If you feel the need to give 10% go for it, but it isn’t required.
Actually, you don’t agree with me on my view of the American church becasue my view is it needs to be torn down and abandoned for something much, much better.
-mike
July 3, 2008 at 2:13 pm
i wont respond to all of them…for time’s sake…but i’ll kinda do what you did…
“if God called them to raise 12 million dollars”
So is that the argument they used to support the Inquisition? Because they killed people in the name of God then. And by spending that money now on a posh building for themselves they are essentially saying that people can starve to death or stay in the sex slave industry.”
“they did exactly what God told them to do.”
So now who knows God’s plan? Are you saying that God wants us to have really nice buildings in lieu of others having food or freedom?
the point was…you weren’t there in the pastor’s heart/mind/or spirit when he says he felt the Lord impressed him to do so…therefore unless God specifically TOLD you He didn’t do that…you have no room to say God didn’t tell him that. perhaps God called him to do something you don’t understand and since you didn’t hear or not hear the calling to that other pseron…you have no room to dispute it. everyone has their own calling…noah built an ark and people thought he was crazy…a man built a giant church and you think he’s crazy. maybe that’s what God told him to do (if not God will destroy it). point is…you don’t know and i don’t know…only God knows (and that particular man).
“so everyone can be included in whatever strife you have in your home??”
The difference between my marriage and the church is my marriage is not out trying to increase its membership. At least it better not be! LOL! The church is trying to actively recruit in a way I see as wrong. Therefore, I am also going to be public with my disagreement.”
an example of family…an analogy of family strife. and the recruitment as i see it…is a group of people trying to plant seeds. without a seed you can’t have growth. it needs to go further i agree…but it can’t start from nothing.
“my defense is not for the church.”
But it is Jen, you are defending people going to church. God is everywhere, not just in some building. The true church is people, not a building to go to. You can be part of the church and not ever step foot in a building.”
let me be VERY VERY clear (because it seems you mis-read what i say alot) i am not defending the “megachurch institution” the Americanization of church…which is what this topic originated on. if by the people…”church”…yes i am defending them. it’s not like i sit in a pew every sunday morning, smile in my complacency, put my tithe in the bucket and go home feeling good. you make that assumption but you actually have no idea. you being so quick to make judgements about even me (who has actually agreed with you on most points) is what makes me question your true motives. my whole point to you this whole time…not your mission but your motive. you come across as bitter toward the church because of personal junk…no patience, no tolerance, quick to speak, quick to judge, and quick to destroy. and intolerant to the idea of meshing what God is doing now…and what you want to see done in the people. maybe i’m off cause i don’t know…but that’s what i am defending. i know WAY more genuine people who LOVE Christ…live like Christ…and work largely in my community for Christ. People who’s hearts break for the things of God…i know hundreds more of those than people who just wear the face. so yes, i am defending those people. my drive is protect those people from what you suggest…basically…mass destruction before you even have time to reach those people and raise up an army fighting not only with the DRIVE of Christ…but with LOVE. (which by the way…was y’alls first point against the billboards?? “unlove”?…kinda contradictory). you fight to love all the nons…but show contemt toward Christians. contempt to your own brothers. while wanting to show love to the non. by the way…i never implied the church was a building.
maybe it’s a personal preference…a personal belief…”
Is it law or a personal belief/conviction?”
i do believe i have already said in 2 posts now that God has impressed it on me. so i guess you can consider that a conviction…a personal belief…whatever you want to call it…i feel God has put that on my heart. (while reading the previous mentioned scripture, in case you missed the part where i had been questioning tithe).
“That is not to say we get to disregard it, it simply means our salvation isn’t dependant on it. To say that we must keep this particular law or that means we had better be keeping all of it.”
that is 100% putting word in my mouth…i NEVER said it was necessary for salvation. i think it’s a form a worship put in place by the “old law”. geesh…i get salvation…i can’t give 10% of my income?? yeah its a conviction and i BELIEVE a sign of submission to God. no one told me that…i’m not repeating anything other than what i felt God impressed on me. but PLEASE do NOT put words in my mouth. and my grandfather said it…he was referring to the scripture “old” and yes it was a command…and no they did not question how it was used. issue was on how the tithe was spent…not on whether or not to tithe…and i did not suggest anyone HAS to do it for salvation.
and i mentioned some other stuff on the new amos blog…
July 3, 2008 at 3:48 pm
Jen,
This has been interesting. I’m sorry if you feel I have put words in your mouth, as I have not. Some of what you are saying is hard to read in the format you write in.
I’m also sorry if you think I have been quick to be judgemental towards you, which I have not.
Let’s go back to you saying I feed the fire that keeps people from church. You then say you are not defending the church.
Can you see, from my point of view, how those look to be opposing statements? It is like the fires I feed are keeping them from a place you think they need to go to find God. Then a few dots later you say you aren’t defending the church, but God. The way those lines are butted against each other make them look like you are equating God to church.
Maybe this isn’t the case, but that is what it looks like when i try to read what you are saying.
I would venture to say the same thing is going on with the tithing issue. You putting ideas close together such as old law and your personal conviction in such a way they seem to be defending each other.
Hopefully this clairifes our misunderstandings.
I’m actually enjoying this dialog, but maybe we should keep it to just one topic at a time? This way we can flesh our viewpoints more fully and I don’t have to try and guess at what you are saying.
In a final defense against me putting words in your mouth about salvation, those were my own words. Many of my coments were actually questions. As such, I am trying to clairfy your viewpoint, not put words in your mouth.
It has been my unfortunate experience that folks still within the church structure start to look past the questions and never really answer any of them. I hope this doesn’t happen here. You are welcome to ask questions of me as well, and I will try to answer them.
Many of your questions seem to be written in a rhetorical manner, like those about the 10 commandments. If that is the case, then your questions about the 10 commandments look like you putting words into my mouth.
Maybe mine seem the same to you. If they do, then I can see how you would misconstrue them to be putting words in your mouth. That was not the intent.
I’ll let you to decide which topic we discuss. I think this will really get things moving in the right direction instead of frustration.
-mike
July 3, 2008 at 5:43 pm
yeah…i was actually just having a discussion with my best friend about my writing (actually talking too) style. i tend to write exactly how my mind is mapping the thoughts and i overthink…so i usually overexplain as well…so it probably makes more sense to me or someone who knows me, harder to follow maybe if you don’t hear me talk all the time
so in this one i will discontinue the “…”. “…” means my mind is mapping. lol. sorry…my fault..i assume people can follow my scattered thoughts. and i honestly think we probably agree on many more points than it seems (due to communication breakdowns. the ever exsisting problem btw men and women, right!)
ANYWAY!!! ok defending the church. i think alot of statement i have made about “church” i have been referring to “megachurches” specifically. so that could be confused with the actual def. of the church. which, yes, is not a building, but a body. (ie people. christians. people of God. whatever you want to refer to it as.) here’s what i’m defending. The “church” (people), i feel (the majority) is good-hearted, genuine people. I definitely think the people are comfortable. Many think or dream about a nation where we still pray in schools, or where every other saturday, they do volunteering in the community. Where they build houses for habitat for humanity every month. where we stand out with signs in front of abortion clinics. However, i think many of these Christians have gotten comfortable in the day to day life that even their church (buildings) promote. being part of megachurches in the past, i have dealt with that restlessness of wanting to do more. and also the complacency of being busy and comfortable in my life. and not challenged to anything else. i have heard numerous sermons on “how to become deeper in our relationships with God” and they were all smothered in truth. good advice. good wisdom. not challenging really. but definitely a good reminder. it planted seeds. God has used those things to minister to me later. but it was not life-changing. i think the people of this nation WANT. and that is why the church (building) is growing so much. here is a non-invasive way, they can go, figure out what it is they want, believe, are looking for. without getting an “in your face” tactic thrown on them. i have to say, i can understand how as a non-Christian or even a baby-Christian, or even a “returning home” Christian, this is appealing. to be accepted into a body of people who aren’t going to drill you and challege you immediately.
here’s where the ball drops…my frustrations with the church (people)
while this may very well be effective in planting a seed in a non-Christian and getting them interested in a relationship with Christ, or a baby-Christian getting some “baby-food” to help build the fundamental day to days of being a Christian, what happens when they grow up? (rhetorical) here’s an analogy. a mission trip. when you go on a mission to another country and work in evangalism, what do you do? you preach, you just try and get the message of “Christ died on the cross for you” out there and get those people saved. they pray with you (maybe) and then go on. but what happens after that if you dont stay with them, and make sure they get in a church or have someone to help them and lead them? you just have to leave it in the Holy Spirit’s hands that He will do something with the seed you’ve planted. And i think the church (buildings) are the same. i think someone had this notion of…there are so many lost people in THIS nation…let’s make a huge church and just get the name of Jesus and that same message out to our own. that’s AMAZING!! what a ministry…BUUUUT…we are looking at it now like, now what. now we have a country full of complacent baby-christians who are “pew-warming” and in the mean time pouring over money to a church who is building new buildings to further THEIR cause and the church (people) is left in the balance with no one to lead them further. i really hope this makes sense.
this is where YOUR heart is so cool. because YOU see that need to take the church (people) to the next level. get out of the crib (the megachurch) and start walking, right?? i feel desire to do the same…get the church (people)growing. not in numbers but in measure, in knowledge, in wisdom, in passion, in mission.
i guess what i’ve been trying to say, i really wanted to come across as constructive. instead of trying to tear down what is already there…why can’t we just take that to the next level? there are some major seeds that have been planted over the last 10 years the mega church has really been on the rise. so…YES let’s tear down the church (building) and bring out the church (people) and put a new word over the word that’s already been placed in them. we don’t need to remove what’s already there. just shift it and develop it. we can “take over” the church (people) without “storming the gates”.
(i am very optimistic. not naive. just optomistic. i don’t want to go to war until growth is refused. until our desire for more is completely shut down. until we really try to change and get cast down…there is no reason to act like we already have been, know what i mean, jelly bean?)
July 3, 2008 at 10:30 pm
Absolutely I see what you mean. And I agree with it. Several years ago several friends and I talked about an undercurrent that was pulling people out of the church, that pulled us out of the church in search of more. Then Barna put out Revolution and he talked about the undercurrent and the numbers that supported our gut feeling.
When Chris and I decided to put this site together and really start to voice in public what we saw was so wrong with the institution, we knew it wouldn’t go over well.
But…
Can you imagine what it was like for people when Jesus showed up, teaching a way that was COMPLETELY different that the other rabbis? I think we get this pictue that Jesus was followed around by people in awe, that they were ready to ditch the old laws and all that crap. But how many were in a complacent state just as there are today?
It isn’t judging, it is just fact. I think we can agree that Jesus shook up the status quo.
It’s like we aren’t allowed to question the bible or God or anything. Well, I think there are enough examples of people who were pursuers of God in the bible and in more recent times to prove that God wants us to question him, wants us to keep digging.
That being said, I want to be very, very lucid here.
It isn’t going to be easy for those who choose to offer a different but better way, a way more in tune with God. Different people have different responsibilities in following God.
If I could give any defense to the mainstream church today, it would be much along the lines you talk about above. However, the leaders have had enough time to transition people into more active roles. They have not done so, they have become complacent, their necks have grown stiff.
Like the saying goes: Success breeds complacency. Complacency breeds failure. (we’ll leave out the last line about only the paranoid surviving…)
The reason the church as an institution is hemmoraging out more mature believers is they are thirsty and hungry and the milktoast that modern church institutions offer isn’t nourishing any more. It is like an old wineskin.
The mantle is being passed, this leadership has grown lazy in its responsibilities and it is time for us to call out the true body of believers into something more. This leadership is content to continue business as usual.
Some of us will be on the front, cutting edge blazing that path. Some will rove the fringes picking up those who have strayed from the main pack. Some will stay with the body to urge them on.
Chris and I are roving the edges, pointing back to Christ.
There are others, who have gone on ahead already doing the work we are called to. People like Shane Claiborne, like Joel and Monica Klepac, like Chris Lahr, and others. They are living examples for us.
So our methods may seem divisive to some, but they speak volumes to others.
These are exciting times, scary times, but full of adventure and awe.
-mike
July 3, 2008 at 10:56 pm
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